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Poster: fenario80 Date: Oct 16, 2008 10:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: (non Dead) ID's & Howard Stern

It's nice that you have so much time on your hands and are trying your hand at some creative writing.

I don't have time to respond to all your drivel, but let's just start with the fact that Ayres murdered 0 Americans vs. McVeigh's 168 ... and as you point out was never convicted of any crime. And while they certainly have crossed paths over the years, there is no evidence that he and Obama were ever close associates.

Do you really think that more baseless fear-mongering is going to help anybody at this point?

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Poster: Edsel Date: Oct 16, 2008 1:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: (non Dead) ID's & Howard Stern

"I don't have time to respond to all your drivel, but let's just start with the fact that Ayres murdered 0 Americans vs. McVeigh's 168"

Ineptitude does not negate intent.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 16, 2008 2:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: (non Dead) ID's & Howard Stern

Exactly, but like obama's tax plan we penalize success!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 18, 2008 2:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: (non Dead) ID's & Howard Stern

>>>"I don't have time to respond to all your drivel, but let's just start with the fact that Ayres murdered 0 Americans vs. McVeigh's 168"

Ineptitude does not negate intent. >>>>


Edsel that's just silly. They intentionally planned NOT to kill anyone! Not that I agree with them, but it's a metter of keeping facts straight.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 22, 2008 3:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

You asked them yourself?

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 22, 2008 5:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

>>They intentionally planned NOT to kill anyone! >>

I saw a documentary and read a few articles. That's what Ayers said.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 22, 2008 6:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

Well that's good enough for me!

Think about that...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 22, 2008 7:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

The point is that the difference of 0 deaths by Ayers vs. for example 170 or whatever for McVeigh is:

intention.

It's not my job to put him on trial, but the least I can do is keep some facts straight. Try it sometime.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 7:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

Yeah and the difference between richard reed and mohamed atta, and the difference between charles manson and jeffery dahmer. The shoebomber never lit his fuse or else he would have killed as much as hundreds. Manson never got his hands bloody either, funny how he got imprisoned, thought he would get a free pass. Ask brian mcdonnell how many people weather underground killed, oh you can't he's dead. Ask terry robbins, diana oughton and ted gold how many people might have died if they didn't.

Let's not forget the cars, private and public property they destroyed. Tell me if some assholes marched down your street and torched your car and busted out your windows that you would say "Way to go! Awesome! Thanks!". All under the guise of protesting a war, with violence? Brilliant! I think I will protest your freedom of speech by letting the air out of kid's bicycles!

You are obviously not going to change your mind, or even consider that you might not be right about everything, I can accept that, can you? I know I make mistakes and have more to learn, have you ever considered the context in which you formed your opinions? The events or experiences that may have filtered your world views?

I used to be like you, look at this:

http://www.archive.org/details/Capitalism_1

Well that's all I could find, I had uploaded a few of the 'newsletters' I sued to hand out at the high school with anti-vivisection, NORML and other liberal propaganda but I can't find them. I still am aginst prohibtion of weed and testing of cosmetics on animals, whaling and deforestation. I am not emo or goth so death is not my thing either, unless someone brings it against myself, my family or my country. The point is, I was about as anarchist, marxist and liberal as anyone.. but I never smashed anyone's windshield out or killed anyone (well not in protest of anything, the windsheild that is... it was my own).

The turning point came when I moved out on my own as a teenager and finally decided to go get what I wanted, ignoring who was supposed to sit in the air conditioning and who was supposed to work in the heat. I insisted and percevered until I got out of the labor pool and into a swimming pool and realized the only thing stopping me from attaining anything is me, not the government, not the zionist new world order, not the reptillian vanderbilts, not the jesus freaks, not corporate scumbags and shady personal injury attornies... just me and my monkey.

So when you have seen both sides of the coin, grown up on food stamps and seen it all before your balls even drop, you might think I have a valid viewpoint on the world. Or you can dismiss me as some neo con and assume things all you want, either way I have a right to think and say it and you have a right not to. What a horrible country we have where these rights are forced upon us.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 9:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

All the stuff you are saying is superfluous.

The point by me was simple and limited to just Edsel's reaction.

Edsel said "Ineptitude does not negate intent."

That point is inapplicable because Ayers intentionally planned NOT to kill anyone! Not that I agree with them, but it's a matter of keeping facts straight.


Ok? They were not inept at all all, because however misguided their reactions they intended NOT to kill anyone.


Your current point is not connected to the thread in any obvious way. You don't who has grown up on food stamps, nor do you seem to realize that racism and other bias exists and that other monkeys are involved beside you.

We aren't individual always. We share air, water, etc and money to perform common tasks. It's valid to question how the common good is funded.

Right now it seems strange to me that the public bailout billionaires because their errors MIGHT cause a recession. It seems more like extortion in the last gasp of a permanent Republican majority.

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Poster: Edsel Date: Oct 23, 2008 10:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

"Kill all the rich people. ... Bring the revolution home. Kill your parents."


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DE1438F932A2575AC0A9679C8B63


http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2169

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 11:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: The left is not socialist my ass

That never happend. The land of the underlined blue links is a myth. He is an education reformer!

Here is a speech you might find interesting...

President Hugo Chavez, invited guests, comrades. I’m honored and humbled to be here with you this morning. I bring greetings and support from your brothers and sisters throughout Northamerica! Welcome to the World Education Forum. Amamos la revolucion Bolivariana! ...

My comrade and friend Luis Bonilla, a brilliant educator and inspiring fighter for justice … has taught me a great deal about the Bolivarian Revolution [i.e., Chavez's movement] and about the profound educational reforms underway here in Venezuela under the leadership of President Chavez. We share the belief that education is the motor-force of revolution, and I’ve come to appreciate Luis as a major asset in both the Venezuelan and the international struggle—I look forward to seeing how he and all of you continue to overcome the failings of capitalist education as you seek to create something truly new and deeply humane.

I began teaching when I was 20 yeas old in a small freedom school affiliated with the Civil Rights Movement in the United States. The year was 1965, and I’d been arrested in a demonstration. Jailed for ten days, I met several activists who were finding ways to link teaching and education with deep and fundamental social change. They were following Dewey and DuBois, King and Helen Keller who wrote: “We can’t have education without revolution. We have tried peace education for 1,900 years and it has failed. Let us try revolution and see what it will do now.”

I walked out of jail and into my first teaching position (HOW ABOUT A FUCKING BACKGROUND CHECK????) and from that day until this I’ve thought of myself as a teacher, but I’ve also understood teaching as a project intimately connected with social justice. After all, the fundamental message of the teacher is this: you can change your life—whoever you are, wherever you’ve been, whatever you’ve done, another world is possible. As students and teachers begin to see themselves as linked to one another, as tied to history and capable of collective action, the fundamental message of teaching shifts slightly, and becomes broader, more generous: we must change ourselves as we come together to change the world. Teaching invites transformations, it urges revolutions small and large. La educacion es revolucion!

I’ve learned that education is never neutral. It always has a value, a position, a politics. Education either reinforces or challenges the existing social order, and school is always a contested space—what should be taught? In what way? Toward what end? By and for whom? At bottom, it involves a struggle over the essential questions: what does it mean to be a human being living in a human society?

Totalitarianism demands obedience and conformity, hierarchy, command and control. Royalty requires allegiance. Capitalism promotes racism and materialism—turning people into consumers, not citizens. Participatory democracy, by contrast, requires free people coming together, voluntarily as equals who are capable of both self-realization and, at the same time, full participation in a shared political and economic life.

Venezuelans have shown the world that with full participation, full inclusion, and popular empowerment, the failing of capitalist schooling can be resisted and overcome. Venezuela is a beacon to the world in its accomplishment of eliminating illiteracy in record time, and engaging virtually the entire population in the ongoing project of education.

(IGNORE THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH!)

We, too, must build a project of radical imagination and fundamental change. Venezuela is poised to offer the world a new model of education—a humanizing and revolutionary model whose twin missions are enlightenment and liberation.

Viva Mission Sucre!

Viva Presidente Chavez!

Viva La Revolucion Bolivariana!

Hasta La Victroria Siempre!

William Ayers 2006

My favorite part is this one:

"Capitalism promotes racism and materialism"

Brilliant, it doesn't promote freedom of choice, higher standards of quality and lower prices? Is anyone here going to not repudiate this guy? This is amazing.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The left is not socialist my ass

SKipping thru the nonsense...

>>William Ayers
"Capitalism promotes racism and materialism"

Brilliant, it doesn't promote freedom of choice, higher standards of quality and lower prices? Is anyone here going to not repudiate this guy? This is amazing. >>>


Basic logic tells you that Ayers is only making 2 claims. He hasn't said anything else in that sentence, so stop spinning your wheels.

Happily, while the right obsesses about a wash-up radical that's now a seated professor at the University of Chicago (and serving on nonprofits set up by Republicans), Obama is free to talk about the important matters at hand. Or just enough to stay out out of controversy.

This post was modified by spacedface on 2008-10-23 19:28:11

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 12:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The left is not socialist my ass

Read the whole article and stop dissecting things to make tiny little irrelevant points. The ugy is a douchebag of the highest order, the fact that a college would hire him is an insult to commone sense and an indicator of the reason why there are so many idiots.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 1:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: The left is not socialist my ass

I read it twice and it just wasn't worth it.

Ayers doesn't seem so great in what I've heard from him -- but why did Republicans pick him to work on their nonprofts and serve on the board with him.

Is time to say that pal-ing around with Ayers "enlittles us all"? I think McCain should refuse money from the Annenbergs, nay all of Chicagoland, until they come clean.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 1:27pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Vote Green!

Edward Pinkney for congress... as soon as he gets out of jail he will be the best there is.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 1:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: McCain Suppressed Info POW MIAs

Report: McCain Suppressed Info on Fellow Vietnam POWs Left Behind

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/23/report_mccain_suppressed_info_on_fellow

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 2:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: spacedface for community organizer

http://www.archive.org/details/dn2006-0911_vid



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Poster: Beelzebubba Date: Oct 23, 2008 1:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Vote Green!

NC, how can you doubt the validity of spaced face's arguments?
He's obviously right.
He can even cite song lyrics to prove his political positions.
Hang in there sf, I'm with you bro!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 1:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Vote Green!

Even a rock & roll fantasy on the edge of reality is close enough to pretend sometimes.

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Poster: Beelzebubba Date: Oct 23, 2008 2:18pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Vote Green!

Hell yes! or whatever, I think.
Regardless of what either of yous guys say I'm still voting Kucinich!
How can he lose!---GO Sox!!!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 2:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Vote Green!

That's like giving your vote to Satan!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 12:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

"Kill all the rich people. ... Bring the revolution home. Kill your parents."

Not a funny as a "joke", as Ayers claimed in 2001.

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Poster: Edsel Date: Oct 23, 2008 12:41pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

Oh, you mean it became a joke AFTER he failed to achieve his goal ?

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 12:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

That was his justification of it.

For him not to clearly separate himself from that phrase, even if he didn't say it, is not a good sign for someone 60 years old.

But of course that has nothing to do with Obama!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 1:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

Except that obama praised his book, launched his career in his living room, sat on multiple boards with him... yeah I know anderberg or richard berg or hamburglar distraction, bla bla bla. Nixon was a republican too, doesn't mean he was not a crook, and colin powell acted like one until he was tired of being called an uncle tom. So what? You don't think the fact that obama associated with these racists and socialists matters?

If I sat in a church for 20 year where the preacher claimed that condi rice created crack and aids to kill white people, would you vote for me? I would hope not.

Please stop ignoring the 800 pound gorilla hiding behind a plastic palm tree and pointing out cracks in the plaster on the ceiling.

That is what you are doing. Ignoring giant factual red flags but pointing out trivial genrealizations and opinions. Everytime I make a point, you dance around it like obama on helen degeneres show. Imagine if oreilly asked obama to dance for the cameras in his interview...

At least white trash hater murtha is going to lose finally and this scumbag mahoney down here. Isn't alcee hastings a criminal too? I am sure since you are such a fair minded person you would agree that we need a check to the balance of power that would be weilded with an uber liberal congress and senate, right?

But let's drop ayers, rezko, wright, biden and all the other excretions and concentrate on oabama:

Raising taxes on investors and business at this time would be catastrophic.

Punishing people for success and rewarding people for failure will have ramifications for years to come.

Withdrawing from any military conflict without finishing the job will affect the entire world for years to come, we should have learned our mistake from viet nam.

Spreading wealth around is pointless, it will be back in the hands of the competent and ambitious in a generation anyway. Go handing out money to homeless people and what do they do? Buy liqour or drugs, treat their mental illness with existing medicaid and VA medical benefits that most of them have and teach them how to live and guess what? They might not stand in the sun begging change from someone who uses a checkcard and barely has enough to pay their own bills after the IRS gets theirs.

Shit on communism, shit on facism, racism and anything else that deliberately forces me to pick up the tab for someone who doesn't want help.

Do you live in a gated community?

Have you ever been poor?

Just curious, most liberals I have met in person have never been the victims of racism or discrimination themselves. They are usually rich kids who's parents put them through school and they feel guilty for having money they did not earn. Trust funders we call them on the east coast, spoiled little fake hippies that hang out at headshops and drive BMW's and talk about changing the world with their magic crystals and biofeedback dildo's.

But seriously I am curious to know where you come from and how you came up with all these theories. It surely was not a community college on a visa card. Prove me wrong.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 2:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

>>>But seriously I am curious to know where you come from and how you came up with all these theories. It surely was not a community college on a visa card. Prove me wrong.>>>

I come from the US. In the America I knew we had financial aid, scholarships, work programs, and low-end jobs that all helped people go to school.


>>>launched his career in his living room>>>

Is launch the word you want, or did it come from gee, I don't know, ah, Satan?! (add churchlady impression)


>>>sat in a church for 20 year where the preacher claimed that condi rice created crack and aids to kill white people>>>

Umm, uhh. One problem areas would be ~sat for 20 years. Didn't happen.
Hmm, do Black pople import the crack? Import guns into South Central by the trainful?

Everytime a point is made that might prove something in erro on your part, you make ridiculous anlaogies and try to change the subject.

Why rest upon stale Reaganite GOP talking points. Some of those people have been peddling the same garbage and have been in power since Nixon. They've failed miserably, and it's now time for the Hippie Agenda (tm). It's inclusive, so don't worry.

Spreading wealth around is NOT pointless. Anyone who pays even salestax contributes, and the "giveaway" is tiny if it ever happens in the way the naysayers claim. What Wall Street get trillions and the rest of US should just shut up?

Getting money to people who will spend it and need it is the goal, and it's just a return to recent history. Which is probably more favorable to the extremely wealthy than Ike's administration of the 1950s.

In any case, it's no time to hate!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 3:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

Honestly , you haven't had any valid points that I didn't agree with but if you really want to believe that be my guest.

Don't answer the questions... then.

Whatever...

You really think the government deliberately tries to kill black people with aids and crack? That is amazing!

Think about this for a second... if you would.

If the government was purposely racist and trying to kill black people (which is absurd) would they create a healthcare epidemic that would spread to everyother race and cost billions to themselves in increased medical costs and awareness and prevention policies?

Or better yet, with crack, would they not only create massive treatment, prevention and enforement cost again for whitey and themselves by introducing crack to the ghetto? You may not acknowledge it but crime statistics against GI whitey might go up. So creating a bunch of crackheads might be a bit self defeating in the long run, no? Wouldn't it also spread to evil whitey after marion barry passed the pipe? I am sure all the evil white people who were carjacked and killed for a $5 rock would support that analogy.

It's absurd and you have to be kidding, if so, touche... if not, douche.

I have answered almost every point you have made with proof it was exaggerated or inaccurate, you have never answered one thing with an honest answer. And then you accuse me of that, is this a joke?

This post was modified by NoiseCollector on 2008-10-23 22:04:21

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 3:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

I work better in smaller chunks.

No doubt there is something I've agreed with but your posts are sometimes deadened with numerous items that wither in the light of reason.

When assumptions are tightly packed you have to look at things in smaller chunks to really see what the assumptions are, right or wrong.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 3:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

I understand the concept, trust me. I honestly cannot stand watching debates and interviews where people won't asnwer the questions, instead asking new questions.

I have made every attempt to provide an answer and yet I usually just get "snide" or dismissive generalizations and completely off the wall answers. Just read the conversations and you will see me answering line by line as best as possible, and then asking you specific questions on the environmental factors you have experienced in order to try and understand your position.

From what I can determine, and please correct me as I have asked at least once, you never had it rough and tried to use the great public assistance you champion to find it doesn't apply to everyone. You might not have ever been skipped over for promotion by someone half as smart, 10% as experienced and twice as absent from work based on race and a tax break because of affirmative action. You probably never had to fight your way out of a race riot at school, and by race riot I mean being attacked because you are not a minority and happened to be in the wrong hallway. Have you ever emptied trash cans? Scrubbed toilets? Worked 3 jobs and tried to finish school?

I am guessing, and again prove me wrong, that you have had it easy and don't understand how hard life can be if you don't have family or charity to help you out of a jam. I only say that because you won't tell me anything that isn't vague. (Like the from america comment)

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 4:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Ayers teacher for right wing foundations!

Bring the violins and the heavy syrup, because mine is a sad tale. Half of my life was spent doing some other clucker's time, and the other half -- well you know the score.

When I was passed over or laid-off, it was sometimes due to bias or nepotism but not racial (except if people hate reddish hair). Perhaps it played a factor once where I was accused of stealing but they eventually found out who it was (a white guy of course), and I can still laugh at a friend of a friend for taking the wrong side if he takes an attitude. Now, the other half was my own fault, living the good life, well I know.



This post was modified by spacedface on 2008-10-23 23:04:16

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 4:29pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: "Kerry stole election from nader" or "Gordon Liddy says legalize marijuana"

A ginger, I knew it.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 8:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Why Joe the Plumber is a Socialist (And You Are, Too)

>>A ginger, I knew it. >>

The right wing spends like there is no tommmorrow, whic is what they hope for.

http://www.counterpunch.org/morris10232008.html

And it's a volatile, secretive kind of socialism, one that can only respond spasmodically to the crises it inevitably creates, throwing gobs of money to the last desperate survivors of financial ships it deregulated to the bottom of the ocean. We've had bubbles in stocks (1920s), commercial real estate (1980s), energy (2000s), and housing (2000s), based on finance-backed feeding frenzies. At the end of each of these you'll find socialism on a grand scale instituted to repair the damage, including, of course, the S&L bailout of the 1980s and the current bailout package. But it's too often forgotten that the New Deal itself, that devilish boogeyman of the right, only became possible because deficit spending was needed to keep afloat a financial system gutted in part by stock speculators borrowing on margin – a risk that has since been abetted, not by removing rules, but by making more of them, and making them smarter.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 24, 2008 12:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Democrats against regulating fannie mae

Like when mccain supported reeling in fannie mae in 2005 and barney fife and the boyz said their was nothing wrong with fannie mae and freddie mac?

And I already posted this but here it is again:

Under Jimmy Carter we received the Community Reinvestment act. This
law says banks have to make loans in low income areas and it has forced many
lending institutions to seek to make loans to people in areas that lenders
would not normally go because of the risk and low property values. (Sub
Prime Loans). This was in 1977. In 1980 president Carter and a Democratic
controlled congress passed the Depository Institutions Deregulation and
Monetary Control Act-- The law also removed the power of the Federal Reserve
Board of Governors under the Glass-Steagall Act and Regulation to set the interest rates of
savings accounts. A Sad fact is we are all still feeling the effects of his
policies and decisions 30 years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass-Steagall_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_Q

Then in 1995, Bill Clinton, (in between interns) made changes to the
Community Reinvestment Act, that forced an increase in the number of loans

to these people and the aggregate dollar amounts loaned.-- Larger loans to
people with less income in areas where the collateral value would go down
instead of up. ( Clinton should have had his mind on the long range effects
of this instead of Monica and a good cigar.) This was in response to
pressure from "community organizer." Can you think of a former Community
organizer running for president? Hint - he's a Democrat

In 1999 Mr. Clinton signed to repeal the Glass-Steagall act which
had protected taxpayers since the Great Depression.

In 2003 President Bush tried to propose a change in regulatory
control over Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae and place both companies under the
control of the Department of the Treasury, but was voted down by the liberal
democrats led by Barney Frank. Remember the name Barney Frank, he is one of
Obama's top two economic advisors the other is Jim Johnson who

was the head of Freddie Mac and walked away with $24,000,000.

Now, Mr. Obama and his liberal cronies are spinning the facts so you will

believe that all our financial problems are because of Bush's failed economic

policy. However, OBAMA'S two MOST TRUSTED ECONOMIC ADVISERS TO

HIS CAMPAIGN are the very people that were in control of Freddie Mac- Jim Johnson $24,000,000 and Fannie Mae – (Franklin Raines $90,000,000 in 6 years).

In addition, since 1989 their have been several politicians who have received campaign donations and kick backs from these two failed institutions. The #1 recipient is Senator Chris Dodd-D RI and the runner up is none other than Senator Barrack Obama who received the second largest amount of donations (over $500,000) which is phenomenal because he has only been in the Senate for 3 years.

When Enron went belly up, we demanded Senate hearings and investigations.
Why aren't the Democrats demanding the same with these companies?


Attachment: nobamabumper.jpg

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 10:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

All the stuff you are saying is superfluous.

I don't see how me stating that I have held opposing viewpoints in the past, but learned from experience that I was wrong is extraneous information. It solidly builds the foundation of my position and prevents you from trying to invalidate my argument on a factual or relevant basis.

The point by me was simple and limited to just Edsel's reaction.

Edsel said "Ineptitude does not negate intent."

I prefer big earl's version but I although I see your point on the semantics, blowing shit up and being convinced nobody is going to get hurt is an ignorant assumption, regardless of intent. This wasn't soupy sales telling kids to mail in their parents money, this was someone telling people to kill their parents, see the difference? And people did die, manslaghter versus premeditated murder is still someone losing their lives, whether the victim was the perp is irrelevant- people died because of the actions and ideology shared by ayers and apparently many others in "academia" who probably have plenty of money and don't care of their own taxes go up or the opposing side's arguments are silenced with "fairness" in media and other "community" related mandates.

That point is inapplicable because Ayers intentionally planned NOT to kill anyone! Not that I agree with them, but it's a matter of keeping facts straight.

I am glad he tried not to intentionally kill anyone, on the same argument did bush intentionally murder our own troops? Did kennedy? FDR? People die all the time, setting bombs off on public buildings which happen to be run by ourselves that might injure someone is ok if you didn't plan on killing anyone? A drunk driver didn't mean to mow down someone in an intersection either but vehicular manslaughter exists regardless of intent.

Ok? They were not inept at all all, because however misguided their reactions they intended NOT to kill anyone.

At least you recognize they were misguided, the failed at their mission of not killing anyone though. I found 4 examples so far that look pretty convincing to me that they are actually dead.

Your current point is not connected to the thread in any obvious way. You don't who has grown up on food stamps, nor do you seem to realize that racism and other bias exists and that other monkeys are involved beside you.

Again you discount my point in trying to disount my point. A viscious cycle indeed. I know I grew up on them, I never claimed to know who else did. I learned to make sure I never had to use them. I watched what I was subjected to and swore to rise above it. Welfare is a crutch not a career.

I don't know racism exists? Have you ever been jumped by a gang at school because of your race? Have you ever been smashed over the head with a beer bottle by a skinhead for walking around the wrong corner? Have you ever heard jeremia wright? Have you ever watched the history channel? Did you see my videos showing klansman byrd and the racist symbols of the democratic party? I am pretty sure all 3 videos clearly show racism of all sorts, not sure why you are even saying that, it makes no sense.

It's you who is the monkey... want a bananna? What other people are involved in my situation? I'd love to know who they are and if they have any money to help me out right now, I hope I qualify unlike the last 10 times I tried to get financial aid for school and other free stuff people all around me seem to get.

We aren't individual always. We share air, water, etc and money to perform common tasks. It's valid to question how the common good is funded.

Maybe you are responding to someone else because I don't get this one, but here goes. Of course that's a valid questions, who said it wasn't? As for individuals sharing air and water, the local ordinances in my town don't allow me to pollute or interfere with my neighbor's air, water or property. This is based on ownership of property by individuals and a government elected by those people. I don't think we are on opposing sides of things on this, but maybe I'll read it again.

Right now it seems strange to me that the public bailout billionaires because their errors MIGHT cause a recession. It seems more like extortion in the last gasp of a permanent Republican majority.

I think the felons on wall street that had any fault in the mess should be in orange jumpsuits. I think the banks that made bad loans should go bankrupt. I think the homeowners that made $40k per year but went with stated income stated asset, negatively amortized loans and got into $400k houses deserve to lose them. I think anyone who broke the law should suffer the consequences and anyone who made faulty laws should be voted out of office. I was embarrased at what both candidates did in supporting that socialist bailout.

I ran into someone the other day who asked me how that bailout treated me. I thought they were joking but they actually think small business owners and self employed people got checks or something. People are so uninformed it's outrageous.

I suggest you all vote for mckinney and send a strong message to both parties. Retardation. But it's pointless because I finished the videos and have moved on to making music again solely for the point of making music, here is the proof:

http://www.archive.org/details/castlebrigantine

Have a very crappy halloween, I imagine I will!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 11:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Bill Ayers for citizen of the year!

If you can't accept a simple point (Ayers *intentionally* NOT ineptly had 0 kills), then you're just being difficult.

I think it's true that the current crop of conservatives are addicted to misinformation.


Instead jump around with a lot of handwaving paragraphs, forgetting about your phrase about you and your monkey, is odd. When you've seen beyond yourself, then you may find, peace of mind is waiting there, as they say. The point is that it's not just you -- the Mississippi River is not your neighbor's water.

You can't expect people to lift themselves up when many are pushing them down. And in the end, the mercy you take, is equal to the mercy you make.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 11:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: McCain for socialist of the year!

It's hardly a socialist bailout if you're only covering the richest of the gamblers!

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 11:44am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: McCain for socialist of the year!

Socialism:

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.

3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

As you can see in item one, it is a totally accurate description. It also would apply to universal healthcare and any other involuntary intervention by government into the free markets.

Unless you deny that those crooked CEO's in turn employed thousands of employees, cleaners, and service technicians to run their offices in addition to the employees who in turn comsumed goods and services from shoeshiners to grocery store cashiers and all the way down to garbage collections, public utilities etc.

The end result was an artificial reward for poor performance which is right in line with the fundamental aspect of imposing a higher percentage of a tax burden on the more successful and paying welfare recipients more for each child born. What happened to liberals and birth control? What is the big deal with rubbers? I won't even wank without them in fear of my hand getting pregnant. God might punish me with a 6th digit.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 12:06pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: McCain for socialist of the year!

>>>As you can see in item one, it is a totally accurate description. It also would apply to universal healthcare and any other involuntary intervention by government into the free markets. >>>

Your definition is useless, even if it is from a dictionary.

You'd do better to look at Wikipedia definition, and not one from a right wing economist.

You CANNOT characterize the bailout as socialist, since the bailout mainly benefits the few at the top. By your definition, there can be no non-socialist army and any other sort of government agency -- despite the fact that there ARE social goods!

Maybe you don't realize this but economic theory is severely weak at its foundations because of its assumptions. At the micro level there are no perfectly rational actors and there is no perfect information. It gets worse from there.

If you look at what the Nobel Prizes in Economics were really for in English, you'd be surprised how simple it is. If you want to see what economists are up against, check out this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biases

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 12:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: McCain for socialist of the year!

Wikipedia is the word of god? Please it's the standard definition, trying to change the meanings of words is a bit strong of a tactic to prove a point!

I CAN categorize ANYTHING ANYWAY that I choose, we still have the constitution.

Oh darn, the opening lines from wikipedia:

Socialism refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating state or collective ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and the creation of an egalitarian society.

Why we would want a society that benefits eagles is beyond me. Ask steve winwood if his taxes are going up? What about grape ape and courageous cat?

You are losing it, and I don't mean just this argument. You are reaching for straws made of pixie dust and the debri is clouding your judgment.

More wisdom from wiki:

Socialism is not a discrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other.

Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies combined with tax-funded welfare programs

Economically, socialism denotes an economic system of state ownership and / or worker ownership of the means of production and distribution.

This is from the churchill that did not call the dead on 9/11 "little eichmans"

. . a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.

Thanks for referring me to even better sources to support my argument!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 23, 2008 12:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: McCain for socialist of the year!

Quoting Winston Churchill is one of the last refuges of scoundrels. I forgot the context of this; maybe it was during tea overlooking the slaughter of the Sudanese:

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."


And you've addressed nothing of the possibility of having a truly free market or that any form of government is really socialism.

Sometimes you right wingers seem as naive, or is it manipulative, as the Marxists.

This post was modified by spacedface on 2008-10-23 19:42:56

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 16, 2008 1:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: (non Dead) ID's & Howard Stern

It's all drivel because you disagree, I know.

I type fast.

But just in case you join the rest of humanity and actually listen to what the other side has to say:

3 members of the Weather Underground accidentally killed themselves making a bomb, that might have hurt someone, no?

How many police officers were killed?

The only difference is Ayers got off and somehow conned morons into letting him teach our children. I guess killing their parents was planned for after tuition was paid, or my tax dollars paid it, thanks!

So after trying to show you how not to personally attack someone because you disagree, and you demonstrating your inability to debate facts and not attack the messanger instead, I have decided to join you in the depths of depravity and call you names. So...

Why don't you go to sex party?

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24504670-29277,00.html

They are a blast!

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Oct 16, 2008 1:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: (non Dead) ID's & Howard Stern

Calling your message fear-mongering drivel is, in fact, attacking the message rather than the message, but as you have previously amply demonstrated your keen critical thinking skills, I am not at all surprised that you can't tell the difference.

Done with you, by the way. I don't have the time to waste.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 16, 2008 1:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

Drivel:

1. saliva flowing from the mouth, or mucus from the nose; slaver.
2. childish, silly, or meaningless talk or thinking; nonsense; twaddle.

My opinion is drivel = not insult to me? Hard to argue that one, but as most of your points have been incorrect it is not surprising, historically speaking of course.

More things you said about me that are not personal attacks:

"but as you have previously amply demonstrated your keen critical thinking skills"

A bit of sarcasm perhaps? Use some periods or conjunctions if you are going to nitpick communication, please.

"Do you really think that more baseless fear-mongering is going to help anybody at this point? "

A bit condesending, no? Baseless fear mongering, again, completely attacking the character and not proving the facts wrong, thanks!

Here's more:

Done with you, by the way. I don't have the time to waste.

I for one am glad to see you are finally getting upset about it.

Have you been in lock-up or something? If this is your usual turn-around time, then you must be a government contractor.

Man you are so completely full of shit.

Another happy fucking lemming, goose-stepping off the cliff ...

"Pointless stuff and rumors" is the only platform McPalin has to offer, beside their stated intent to continue the financial war on the poor and middle class.

THIS ONE WAS NOT AN ATTACK ON ME BUT WAS SO FAR OUT THERE I HAD TO INCLUDE IT, are you serious? And if so what the hell happened to you to make you believe that? Don't you want to make a half a million dollars a year? Are you happy collecting welfare? I don't get it, protecting our country from enemies and keeping taxes low is fundamentally good for us, have you not studied history?

THIS IS A GOOD ONE:

but then again you've already declared your refusal to admit any information that contradicts your childish world view. You can stick your head back up your ass now ...

revisionist history seems to be your stock in trade ...

But you can't expect discourse from rasta, who knows NOTHING but last night's Fox News talking points - seriously, rasta, how many deliberate blatant lies do they have to feed you before you realize what a patsy you are? I'm sure you are all upset about William Ayres, too, ya yokel.

Rasta would know this too if he were capable of reading anything longer than a Fox News headline.

THE GLOVES ARE OFF, YOU ARE AN INTOLERANT, BIGOTTED and UNREASONABLE ASSHOLE.

There I said it. Now screw off.









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Poster: fenario80 Date: Oct 16, 2008 3:33pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

For the record, I don't give you nearly that much thought. And while it kind of pleases me to know that I got so far under your skin ... it's also more than a little creepy.

You've been collecting my posts for weeks to put that together? I stand by everything I've said, and will add that you, sir, clearly have way too much time on your hands.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 18, 2008 1:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

>>>You've been collecting my posts for weeks to put that together? I stand by everything I've said, and will add that you, sir, clearly have way too much time on your hands. >>>

NC could be an operative; the right wing "foundations" spread money around to all sort of disinformation projects.

I'm not of the 60s generation so I've only read of agent provocateurs. Even Abbey Hofmann's bodyguard was an agent. I bet we don't know the half of what Hoover and Nixon did. Disinof projects went way into academia too.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 22, 2008 3:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: I love Oprah

At least radical socialism never made it into academia!

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 22, 2008 5:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I love Oprah

In academia you can fight with the truth. You don't need propaganda.

Our country doesn't need policies designed by political parties of foreign countries either.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 22, 2008 6:30pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I love Oprah

You should see what's in the kid's textbooks these days...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 22, 2008 7:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I love Oprah

re: textbooks, see

Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong, by James W. Loewen
http://www.uvm.edu/~jloewen/liesmyteachertoldme.php

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 23, 2008 7:30am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: I love Oprah

I'll actually check it out.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 16, 2008 3:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

No you can click someone's name and see all their posts.

Everyone knows that.

You ain't under my skin. If anything it's the contrary.

I am smiling right now knowing you thought that.

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Oct 18, 2008 9:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

My last word.

This is a Grateful Dead forum. I've never started a political thread on here, and I've certainly never hijacked a music thread to spew my politics, things you do just about every day. You are polluting my Grateful Dead experience with your political bullshit, daily - and isn't that exactly what pissed you off at Bob, Phil Bill & Mickey recently?

You are a giant screaming hypocrite - "the Grateful Dead is no place fo politics unless it happens to be my own".

If you come on here spewing your hateful shit, you have to expect responses, and you don't get to be all outraged just because someone is a little snide and calls you a couple of names. Keep your filthy fucking politics out of here, and you won't hear any of mine.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 18, 2008 9:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

Either you have a photographic memory and are having a nervous breakdown or you are pasting 2 times stating this is your last word.

We all hope it is, I didn't start any of this. The band took sides, people have been posting letfspeek all over this forum and I commend the diversity of thought of the people here and the bravery of those who speak out against the onslaught of liberal propaganda and prove that you don't have to be a liberal to like good music and good times.

We are all stuck on the same planet, so chill the hell out and relax. We still have a few months left of democracy, so enjoy pursuing your goals and dreams without government interference for as long as it lasts and adapt to the cyclical changes like we always do.

Buy gold, bullets and spam just in case, though. You never know how bad this is going to get. Shit even sean penn packed a shotgun in norlins.

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Oct 18, 2008 12:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

Fenario--

I never did understand why NC chooses to spew his paranoia about a leftist conspiracy to take away his freedom on a Grateful Dead forum (seems a little like logging on to a Battlestar Galactica forum to rant about fixing potholes in the City where you live), but because I am a liberal, I defend his right to say whatever the hell he wants.

Every time he does it undercuts his own argument about liberals being oppressive. That's the whole point of being liberal--you may disagree with a person's point of view, but you defend like hell his right to say it.

The irony is that the very right wing politics he defends are practiced by the same assholes who put protestors into "designated protest pens" during conventions and ignore FISA laws to listen in on private Americans' conversations, and subvert free speech by looking for books to ban based on content they find objectionable (I'm looking at you, Governor of Alaska).

I get that you're offended by his inexplicable statements that "democracy is going to disappear" once Obama is elected--as if 8 years of Bush/Cheney hasn't done more to erode democracy than any American administration in the past 100 years (Habeas Corpus? Who needs THAT?), but don't try to shut yourself or him up. It's his right as an American and it's only annoying that he chooses to place it here--shutting him up or off would only give him fodder for his anti-liberal paranoia.

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 20, 2008 2:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

Although I appreciate your position on allowing everyone their own opinion, I have to fault you for calling ot paranoid. It is quite obvious we are headed towards socialism with the ioncompetence of both parties. While you may be an advocate of free speech, this guy was not:

http://passionateamerica.blogspot.com/2004/10/liberal-manifesto-1963-communist-goals.html

Damn, I ruined my trivia question in my forum, where I was going to stay until I saw these posts...

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Poster: spacedface Date: Oct 18, 2008 2:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

>>>Every time he does it undercuts his own argument about liberals being oppressive. That's the whole point of being liberal--you may disagree with a person's point of view, but you defend like hell his right to say it.>>>

It's also odd because I think the reason why the Grateful Dead became very popular in reaction against the Reagan right wing.

Attendance was already up before Jerry's coma and "we will survive" -- which hit a nerve in a time when Reagan was gambling or bluffing a nukyahler war.

Really, you could survey the landscape of America and the GD stood out as one of the main alternatives to what Amercia has become. It was like a choice between life and death as a way, and still is.

Or it could I was listening to this Throwing Stones (and the sudden transition to Black Peter) surfing:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1986-04-22.sbd-pcm.miller.34768.flac16

I think Jerry's solo is Throwing Stones is really hopeful.


This post was modified by spacedface on 2008-10-18 21:16:55

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Oct 19, 2008 7:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

Nice verson--thanks for the link!

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Poster: fenario80 Date: Oct 16, 2008 8:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

Look, seriously, let's just end this. You are correct that I am snide and sarcastic. Sorry about that.

I will clarify the statement that bugs you so much that you've called me on it twice (see below), stressing that I'm pretty sure you exhumed it from a few weeks back. I stress that because, at that point, to my knowledge, McCain had never said anything that criticized Bush economic policies. He started that just a couple of weeks ago, when it became clear that he HAD to.

It's pretty simple: Republican administrations foster a business environment that favors big business at the expense of the poor and the middle class. This is not a smear: it's part of their platform. Look what happened during the wonderful Reagan 1980's. But in the last eight years we have seen an acceleration of this trend, to the point where our middle class is truly in danger.

I have heard your side of the economic argument, that raising any taxes during a recession is a recipe for disaster. But I'm a corporate accountant, and know many, many tricks that very wealthy people use to pay little or no tax. When you are a small business owner, you love this because it really is the only way you can get started. But when billion-dollar profit energy companies pay virtually no tax - or, in a case like Enron, get $381,000,000 (sic) in government kickbacks - and their officers take home $100,000,000 (sic) bonuses, at the same time that poor and middle class incomes are dropping, then something is clearly wrong.

My point is that if you've had something to say about an issue, I've read it and I'll agree or disagree - no big deal - but that is not what you usually do. You usually run in shouting SOCIALIST! SECRET MUSLIM! TERRORIST! WE JUST CAN'T TRUST THAT GUY! and that's just hammering the same tired (and, frankly, paranoid) talking points, and you kind of deserve to be sneered at by somebody. It is plain and simple fear-mongering.

Whatever, dude. Vote your conscience.



"Pointless stuff and rumors" is the only platform McPalin has to offer, beside their stated intent to continue the financial war on the poor and middle class.

THIS ONE WAS NOT AN ATTACK ON ME BUT WAS SO FAR OUT THERE I HAD TO INCLUDE IT, are you serious? And if so what the hell happened to you to make you believe that? Don't you want to make a half a million dollars a year? Are you happy collecting welfare? I don't get it, protecting our country from enemies and keeping taxes low is fundamentally good for us, have you not studied history?

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Poster: Administrator, Curator, or StaffNoiseCollector Date: Oct 20, 2008 3:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Nothing but insults and paranoid douchebaggery

Fine, agreed.

We can agree to disagree, I happen to think business creates middle class and have worked for big corporations (that sucked) and have been self employed, either way more of my money was taken involuntarily from my check under democratic presidents than republicans, it's not an opinion it's a fact. I use very little if any of the government services and do not qaulify for the benefits made possible by my own tax dollars. I don't drive a jaguar or leave in a mansion.

I have never run in and yelled socialist or muslim terrorist in any of our exchanges, maybe I spoke of associations with those people but never accused any candidate of being a terrorist any other thing like that. He definitely leans left and left is just as bad if not worse than right. What is wrong with the middle?

You don't think a healthy blend of liberal democracy and conservative principles is the way to go? I thought it was. With pelosi, reid and obama there will be no balance and that is not good for any of us.